Alex Hormozi's Best Sales Advice | 1 Hour Compilation

0:00I want to be top 10 marketer in the world. Okay. >> Tell me three things which I should not >> tell you one thing. >> Okay. >> Which is that you need more proof. >> I need more proof. Right. >> Yeah. So to be like to be the best marketer in the world like you could take everything that I I say you could literally copy word for word every video, every book that I have and then just produce it in India, right? You could do that. Shoot people do, right?

0:30And yet none of them have nearly the same audience or influence. Why? >> It's open question. >> Yeah. So over here like my I am among 30 people whose book got forwarded by Dan Kennedy. So I for the proof part like even I rank your charts and I got awarded by Yeah. >> Answer the original question. So if you use all that stuff or if someone used all that stuff, why why is there no one in India or China who's just taken everything I have and translated it because tons of people have. Why are they not me?

1:02>> Because I'm connected to you, not that stuff. >> I'll say two reasons. One is uh they're not source. So it's very different to be somebody who's an acolyte of someone versus someone who thought of it. So you can regurgitate SPCL, but you don't know how I came to that. You can regurgitate the branding thing, but you don't know how to apply it because you didn't think about it from first principles. When it breaks, you don't know why. So, the application breaks. That's number one.

1:27Number two is that no one has the proof. And when I say proof, I mean, what's the like where's the $50 million company you sold? Where's the billion dollar tech platform that you own? Where's the billion dollar advisory practice and private equity firm that you own? Like, that's what's missing. And so like if you want to be in the B2B game and I want to be very clear here, you can make money doing anything. It's just how how much, right? And you can always convince people at a at a lower, you know, at a low level, but as you try and go up the market, you will need to have more and more compelling proof. To be impressive to poor people, you just need a little bit of money. To be impressive to rich people, you have to demonstrate a lot more. And so, but the problem is that the rich people tend to be the ones who influence a lot of the poor people.

2:17And so, you want to be an influencers's influencer. You want to be somebody that the people who other people look up to look up to. You want to be your favorite rapper's favorite rapper. Favorite comedian's favorite comedian. That's your favorite marketer's favorite marketer. And in order to be your favorite marketer's favorite marketer, you actually have to be really good. And in order to for people to know you're really good. So, how do I get Tyler to eventually come to my team? I have to prove it. Because if if if we just assume the the audience at large, the market at large will start at two degrees left of setter, they're going to start at skeptic, start at doubtful, and rightfully so because they were 14 the first time they bought an MLM and were like, "Oh my god, I should never do this again." And then from that point going forward, [laughter] they never believed anything ever. And they shouldn't. But eventually, if you prove enough things, they're like, "You know what? This is actually a really good source of information." And so the reason that uh a brand will grow like if you want to have a big marketing brand why is it that Warren Buffett like why do why do we listen to authorities? Do you know why we listen to authority figures?

3:15Because it's the lowest effort way of consuming information because if you listen to an authority you don't have to start you don't have to think is this true is this not true. If Warren Buffett says this is how you invest he's worth hundred billion dollars. He's been doing it for multiple cycles multiple world wars and you're like I believe him. And so you can pretty much just directly take what he says, put it into your brain, and then act on it. And fundamentally, this is the issue with humanity in terms of authority because it's very persuasive because we don't even think about it. We just take it as fact because it's lower effort. When you have fundamentally a diff a teacher who makes $50,000 a year could repeat everything that Warren Buffett says about investing, maybe even make better content about investing, but no one would believe them because if you're so good, why are you a teacher making $50,000 a year? If you're the best marketer in the world, then why aren't you the best marketer in the world?

4:01And so, like, if you want to be the best marketer in the world, then go market and prove that you're the best marketer in the world. Like, go sell some [ __ ] If you had a sales team to most businesses, most businesses will make more money. And so, if you were to think about your attention like a pyramid, um, if you just draw a line at the top of the pyramid, that's what you would convert automatically. If you go lower than that, then you basically convert a a colder percentage of the audience because the sales team kind of nudges people, kind of grabs people from below and then pulls them up, right? Um I think that like for what my plan is for 2026, I probably will not have a sales team um for what I'll be doing. And I think about that because um I mean honestly it's just because like I have enough traffic that I don't feel like building a 200 person sales team which is what I would probably have to do in order to handle the traffic that I have.

4:51Um and so I've just set the you know restriction for us as a company like we just won't have one and we will figure out how to do it without. So, I'll have tons of data on this next year because that's going to be a big focus of mine and I'm going to hold the line with that um as like a big a big priority. I do think all the benefits that I that we kind of talked about which is like if people click buy, I do think they're they have higher intent. I do think they'll probably stay longer than people who are sold over the phone. I think you have fewer chargeback, fewer refunds. I think reputational risk goes down. So, I think there are a lot of benefits um to that. But from a like a make money fast button, adding a sales team pretty much does that. Um and so if if there is a world where you can get higher conversions without the work of managing a sales team then I think everyone will jump onto that. Um the early signs that I've seen because I look at a lot of businesses um I have seen a proliferation of people who were selling via automated chat things like that. Um, and what what from from what I've heard early on from the guys that I know um who are doing decent numbers, the advantage of no sales team, you will you will convert a smaller percentage of people who see the offer, but 10 times as many people might see the offer. And that's so because you don't have to deal with schedules, no shows, getting to somebody like all of that disappears.

6:07And so it's really just it's going to be offer driven to be fair because like the offer is going to carry a lot of the weight, especially if you don't have a brand. But basically showing the offer to as many people as you can in general tends to get more um also I think the higher the qualifications of who you're looking for um the less some people want to hop on sales calls. So I think there's like I do think there's some stuff in terms of culture that's moving. Um you know 20 years ago uh answering phone calls was really normal. Now it's rude.

6:35>> That part's super interesting because me personally and everyone I talk to it's like they don't want to get on a sales call. They just want to buy. Yeah. >> And you even like bought your Tesla by clicking buy now. >> Yeah. >> That's likeund and something grand. You just click buy now. You don't go to the dealership anymore. You don't even talk to someone. >> Someone sends you a text, you're like gh, come on, just let me buy it. Um but when they're more qualified. So that's why these two things can kind of work together. I think a a more experienced business owner that is making more money probably just wants to see the price, see what they get, click by.

7:08>> Yeah. And that's a little bit of a preview of what I'll probably be doing next year. Um was like how can I how can I make it for the right avatar? They just want to be able to make the decision in two minutes and be in or out. Um and so that's I'm going to basically orient towards that. >> And I guess you also just experienced this with your launch >> because yeah, there was no sales team really. Yeah. Okay. >> And people and I think there there's also like there's a lot of limiting beliefs in the space of like anything above $3,000 you have to have a sales team for. I don't think I mean fundamentally it's like go down to physics like no I mean people are buying $170,000 cars online so no I don't think that's true I do think that people need a certain amount of information in order to make a purchasing decision and the amount of information required to make that decision depends on the qualification of the prospect so you have a high a super highly qualified person and a low price relative to their qualification they don't need a lot of information to make the decision if you have a a BTOC customer and you're selling them a house they need a lot of information to make that decision um or at least significantly more and so functionally brand serves as the proxy for lots of information prior to the purchase and then they just need enough information about the offer in order to buy. And so that's where like I think many of you guys who here has organic as like one of your primary ways of getting customers. Yeah, it's probably 80% of you guys are are organic first. And I think that that's actually just going to continue to increase. I mean it already is, you know, 80%. But if if we had asked this question like 5 years ago, I mean it probably would have been like 10. Like a lot of things have changed.

8:39And so um I think obviously invest I mean if you just model what I'm doing like I'm investing super heavy in media, super heavy in brand. Um A16Z, which is a big um VC firm, they've got like 40 billion, you know, under management. They're building a a separate media house because they see the value of um of media and production and how it merges with commerce and business. And so like I don't think this is going away. I only think it's going to get more aggressive and that's why I'm getting really aggressive in my investment with it.

9:06>> Very interesting. >> Yeah. [applause] >> When you make an offer to somebody and they say no, I'm not interested. How often is that able to be turned around? >> Across what setting is that? In a sales setting. >> In a sales setting. >> Um I think it depends on the reason the person said no. So it that would that would be a like it would be a discovery question after that. So be like well what are the variables you use to make the decision and sometimes like I think there's a there's a big difference between a no based on value uh or a no based on details or a no based on authority or a no based on timing like just kind of said budget authority and timing. These are the kind of the components. Well, how do we make sure that we can can I control can I can I overcome some of these issues? Now, if someone's like, "Uh, love what you have.

9:54Um, I don't buy coats because I live in Panama." I'm like, "Okay, there's no need." Like, I could try and sell whatever like, "Hey, I've got a gym membership. Uh, why aren't you signing up?" It's like, "Well, you're in Iowa and I live in Florida." >> Like, like, I'm never going to get there. Like, so it's like where it depends on the reason for the no. >> And what if it's a price issue? Mhm. >> Where do you draw the line between lowering the price and cheapening the product and getting someone who's qualified or keeping the price the same but losing the sale?

10:22>> Yeah. So, I I'm a very firm believer in never negotiating with terrorists, including price terrorists. And so, if someone wants to look like if someone says, "Hey, can you do it for cheaper?" You know, we always I mean, we train on saying like, "We can do it for more." And people are like, "Okay, yeah, I got it. I'll I'll buy at that price." Um, but I the price that you quote is the price that you stick to. Otherwise, every as soon as you negotiate once, every price you have is negotiable, which sucks as a business and is a pain in the butt and I hate it. So, um, and you want price standardization anyways because you don't want different people getting sold different prices. People could talk. It's kind of sucks. So, um, my big thing is price and terms. And so, if we have this price, if I'm going to change it, then I will also change terms. So, if someone's like, "Hey, I I would love to buy the $5,000 thing, but I can't afford it." If we've already looped a couple times and said, "Okay, why can't you afford it? Why how important is this to you? What would it cost you to to not do this? You know, quantify as many of these things as possible." And they're still like, "I literally just don't have this amount of this is here's my bank account. I have $3,000. I will buy it for $3,000."

11:20>> Then in that instance, like, I can't ethically sell you the same thing as somebody else for $5,000 for $3,000. I can't do it. What I can do is I can remove a component. So, let's look at these things that we have here. Uh, we have this guarantee. I can remove the guarantee and I can knock $1,000 off. Does that work? Okay. Um, also instead of, you know, coming to the gym, you know, three times a week, if you come to the gym twice a week, will that work for you? Great. Well, let's just do that. And you can do one workout at home. So, I'll I'll I'll want to change the terms of the agreement if I'm going to change price, but I can't I won't just say, "Sure, I'll do it for less." Is the character of a successful seller a scammy one? I've been coming up with ideas to upsell clients, and some of my smartest ideas feel scammy. It's like I keep finding ways to increase my margin by selling client solutions to imaginary problems. Okay. So I think we have to define a scam. So a scam I think is just something that is deceptive in nature which is that you promise something that you do not deliver. Um and so fundamentally that's it. And so I think to some degree a lot of things are scammy because they promise things they don't deliver. Uh which is why the first rule of marketing for us has always been state the facts and tell the truth. And if the if the facts and the truth are not compelling, we need to change reality. We need to change we need you know what I'm not saying here is uh that you're you're you're juking your stats.

12:30I'm saying that you work harder at making the thing better so that the stats and the facts are compelling and then you go advertise it and you let everybody know about it. And so, um, coming up with ideas to upsell clients some like like yeah, I think it just comes down to that like state the facts of the truth. If you're going to help somebody and you know how to help them, tell them you're going to be able to help them. And as long as you don't promise anything you can't do, you're fine. That's really it.

12:55So, and I'll say this, this I think this is actually relatively important. You have to make a decision at some point in your career whether you're going to pay more mind to the people who you want to help or the people who will hate on you for trying to help. Every person who's an entrepreneur has to make that decision at some point because people will hate you no matter what you do. If you do nothing, they will [ __ ] on you for doing nothing. If you do something, they will [ __ ] on you for how you did it. And why do we do this? Because we gain relative status by putting other people down.

13:30Evolutionary. And so, I mean, I obviously don't subscribe that way. You've never seen me talk negatively about anyone on my channel on any platform. And I do that because I think there's enough negativity in the world. We don't need anymore. That being said, um you still have to be able to weather that storm. And so if you can decide, I will choose to help this customer and I will do it in a way that might seem cringe or might seem odd or might seem weird to me because I think somebody else is going to make a comment in my mind about how I'm doing things. [ __ ] them. They don't care about you anyways. And they only feel that way because you remind them of the risk they were unwilling to take for themselves to get what they truly wanted. And as a result, they have a life that is inferior based fully on the things that are mediocre that they never wanted to begin with but settled for out of convenience.

14:16Right now we're in the high ticket space, but we're attracting so many people accidentally, let's say, because we're trying to have a targeted people, but we have like 8 million views organically. And we're thinking of why not make a low ticket because our the founder I'm I'm a growth operator. The founder doesn't really want to do calls anymore. So, I'm thinking, should we just start doing low ticket and stop that high ticket to make it scalable?

14:45>> So, does he not want to deliver for the high ticket thing anymore? >> He wants, but he doesn't want to. >> He wants to make the money from the high ticket thing and not do the delivery of the high ticket thing. >> Yeah, I technically do a lot of the delivery. [laughter] >> What are the calls? Is there like one-on- ones or like how many? Like, >> yeah, there's a lot of one-on- ones, but also the group calls. >> So, it's probably the one ones. Yeah, >> I would see if you can remove the one ones and keep it high ticket. Like generally you can. It's often a trap.

15:12Yeah, >> Admiral Akbar. Um, yes. I mean like there for sure you can sell high ticket with group calls. You can also as an intermediary you can do semi-private. You can do like one on six or one on seven. It's I mean you'll 6x the capacity. You'll then you'll hit the same issue in like a year and then you'll have to eventually get to group. But sometimes people have a hard time like emotionally getting through that. So you can make it two transitions. But if you know you're going to end up in group calls anyways, like you can still keep the same price point and everything. You just you still get access just in this format.

15:43>> I found everyone tends to do one-on- ones longer than they need to. They swear it's the thing. >> It's like if I can't let go of the 101. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, and when would you say we can kind of branch to low ticket? >> Let me just I want to piggy back on what Sam just said about the 101 and then let me answer your thing. Like I don't think there's anything wrong with starting with one-on-one because if you're brand new, it's like the only kind of like value you can provide in some ways if you're like not an expert or you're just just learning this stuff. But once you do one ones for a year, you know that there's like there's five problems and this is how you solve problem 1 2 3 4 five and I can show you how to solve them a hundred ways because I just did a whole year of one-on- ones. And so that's what allows you to basically build the productized version or the more scalable version. So I wouldn't see it as like, oh, I wasted my time doing this. It's like you earn the right to scale.

16:31>> Yeah. Yeah. That's what >> Just so he can not feel bad about >> Yeah, we're we're right there. >> Cool. What was the other question? >> No, it's just allow productizing it and making it just low ticket. >> Well, course >> you could not make it low ticket and keep it high ticket and just use the narrative I just >> I run um a clinic that's uh does mostly tellalth and uh part of it is uh in person highly technical procedure called TMS for depression. Okay.

16:57>> And we do about 3.5 uh in revenue. It's our eighth year. Um I started right after residency. Uh I'd like to be about five uh million in revenue. And what's stopping me is first of all um the in-person procedure is a highly technical procedure requires a lot of training and not a lot of other referral sources know about it. >> A lot of people are depressed, but nobody really think people think it's ECT or you're getting electrocombulsive therapy. Um it's covered by insurance.

17:22We take all insuranceances. Um so my for that it's finding referral sources getting trust from clinicians who want to refer or direct to consumer marketing. >> Um and then for the teleaalth portion um retention of clinicians who often quit and finding patients. So um it's very hard to hire a nurse practitioner even who makes $190,000 $180,000. Um by the way great career, a lot of money right out of school. Um but when they leave we are devastated because they have hundreds of patients and we have to hire again really fast. So that's limiting our growth. Um just off the top of my head.

17:58>> Okay. So what's stopping me is you would like more patients, not sure what source to get them from. You do have some issues where if staff leaves that limits your supply um and you want to grow by 30%. >> Yes. >> Okay. So right now can you handle more customers or not? >> Yes. Okay. How many more customers can you handle? >> Um, it's a balance. >> 30% more customers.

18:23>> Yeah. Balance between like I'm hiring two or three new clinicians a year, >> but um we can never fill them and then they get angry and they want they're like I hired I signed up for full-time. You're only giving me half time and we won't pay you per hour. So, >> the way we compensate needs to probably be thought out. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> You know, I'm not I'm not um I don't have any MPs that work for me. Uh, but I would probably try and ask like what do you want?

18:51Like what would what would what would make this uh opportunity compelling enough for you to stay because we want to just continue to invest in you. >> Um, it makes it difficult for us to do that if we're not sure if the investment walks out the door within 12 months. Now that being said, someone stays 5 years, >> you won. You know what I mean? Like you had a pretty good pretty good stay. Um, so [sighs] you are demand constrained. So it's basically you need to get more patience. If you get more patients, you can fill up the NPs. If you can fill up the NPs, they'll be happy. They more likely to stay uh because they actually have a full roster and they're making as much money as they want.

19:23>> Yeah. >> Okay. So, we have a demand constraint just from a focus perspective. >> Okay. So, if you demand constraint then you you alluded to earlier we can do uh you know there's ob you know there's an affiliate path. That's one way which is you can find other providers who send you send you business. Uh but you're saying a lot of them don't know what you do. Um obviously you could solve that with education and outreach. Um we could do direct to consumer. The question is the thing is is that >> we do Google and Facebook ads currently.

19:48>> Yeah. The I mean I like direct to consumer personally just because most people in that space suck at advertising so it's like not that hard. Um but the reason so something this is I'm going to go like underneath of your question to something that I think will be more valuable for you which is you have the Harvard medical etc. background and you're probably a very bright guy. You have to take how you advertise down a hundred [ __ ] levels.

20:15>> Um, I'm being super real with you. Yeah. >> Uh, there's a reason that I run every single piece of copy through Hemingway and I get it, you know, below fifth grade, ideally below third grade, uh, reading level because if someone has to pause when you say a word, you've lost them >> because you're already on to the next word and they're like, "What did that other word say?" And then they're trying to think like, "What does this mean?" They're not listening to what they're they're trying to decode rather than just immediately absorb. And so I'm I' the more I've been doing this, the more I'm an advocate of clear over clever.

20:43>> And [sighs] for your marketing, you said, not your marketing, for for the business, you said it's highly technical. It's very advanced. It's hard to train people up on this thing. It's hard to explain uh how this works. Insurance covers it. If I'm if I'm the consumer, I care about sad face go happy face, >> right? And I care about insurance covers. So if you say, "I'm Harvard medical doctor. I tell you you sad face.

21:09I can make you happy face and insurance covers it and it's more effective than talkie talk." I'd be like, "Fuck yeah." [laughter] Right? >> And I think honestly that's probably what's missing in the advertising and sales process, which is you need to strip away everything that you currently say that's medical and just speak to what the avatar, you know, the customer who is depressed, what they're meet them where they're at. And I think that if you if you can advertise in that way, any of these channels will work. But I do think that if I were if I were you in swapping places, I'd probably go the ad channel personally.

21:41>> Okay. How about tellahalth? Is there something different there? >> No, same same. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I would say local is if I had to pick like what's the easiest button? Local services that are high ticket is like like it's hard to lose money. >> Okay. >> Because you have because in person you have so much less sophistication in a local market and local competitors. And so it's like if you if you study the stuff that we do when we're competing on a global level and you put it in, you know, Kentucky, you crush everyone. It's like not even close. Like you just drop a pin on the map, you say, "Okay, you know, 25 mile radius." And like you're just competing against everybody in the 25 mile radius. You're har the only Harvard guy who's doing this in the 25 mile radius. So you literally

22:21>> I'm in Boston, unfortunately. So I have MGH, Brigham, Israel. They're all >> whatever. [ __ ] them. It doesn't matter. So like [laughter] I stand by my original statement. But like, but the thing is is here's the good news is that the thing that makes you great, right? You're very smart, did the medical stuff, all that is actually is going to be everyone else's weak point, right? Because all of them, you probably know this, all of them have massive egos and all of them are like, well, every if they can't understand me, then they're too dumb to be my patient. It's like, yeah, and you'll just be poor, whatever.

22:49So, if as long as you can just basically quiet that part of, you know, your brain and turn on the how do I make this as simple as possible so they understand it, you'll still crush them and then they'll be upset and assume you're doing something wrong or you have somehow uh made money in a way that they would not prefer, >> right? And so I will translate because you will start advertising and the more of my stuff that you, you know, you go through, they work with us on it, um, the better it will work and the more they will hate you because you're doing something that they don't do. And then they're just going to decide that morally they're superior to you because you've lowered yourself uh to advertise your business.

23:26>> Just as a prep. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. You bet. By the way, if you ever get like hateful comments, the easiest translation in the world is um you live your life in a way that I would not prefer. It's just the easiest thing. Like that's how I've gotten over many many many many negative comments like I can't believe it's he lives his life in a way I would not prefer. Okay, you can live your life. >> Why would I?

23:49>> I sell customer experience software to enterprise banks, retailers, and government facilities. So, it's a SAS platform >> and I' right now my run rate is 4 million in annual recurring revenue and I want to exit 2026 at 12 >> in annual recurring revenue. >> Okay. >> Um my biggest issue right now are the very long sales cycle. So, the high CAC

24:13>> and the how capital intensive it is to deliver on these large enterprise projects. And to give a tiny bit more context, >> um, when we started the platform 3 years ago, it was a simple product, shorter sales cycle, lower value, lower buyer. As we did a lot of R&D, the ROI we generate and the mission that we fulfill is much higher calling, higher buyer, but now longer sales cycle, longer time to realize value.

24:45>> Mhm. So, so the problem is >> because the fact that it takes a long time isn't a problem. It's just a fact. >> The problem, the constraint in the business is capital. >> Okay, >> that's the constraint. >> And so, if I keep chasing this this new direction, >> which is triple the value, but also longer sales cycle, >> I don't want to run into a checkmate. So, I got to keep paying the bills, I'm kind of straddling between paying the bills and then going to where there's long-term value.

25:14>> Yeah. So, um, there's kind of like I mean there's probably a lot of ways to think about it, but there's two there's two that come top of mind. So, one is that you can continue to sell kind of the smaller deals that you got into that have shorter sales cycles to kind of bridge the cash. Um, because as long as you're appropriately priced, the longer conversion cycle, bigger enterprise accounts should start spitting out cash soon, right? And so there should be good gross profit that lives in those businesses once they've been onboarded and then they kind of you get into like kind of the meat, you know, the cash cow cycle of um of the relationship. And so either it's a short-term bridge that you need um or the model is just in general not priced properly. So do you feel like it like you are properly priced that if all of the ones that you have right now come to fruition, you will be running good margins?

26:07>> Yes. >> Okay. So, as long as it's not a pricing issue, then it's short-term cash cash squeeze. So, one is you can sell kind of the existing smaller customers that you have right now and be okay with the fact that you're giving, you know, you're going to give up some of the the longer term because you need to stay alive. The uh alternative is that with some of the bigger enterprise accounts, you can try to start changing the terms so you can pull cash forward. And so, that's where um adding in kind of initiation, enrollment, onboarding, setup, fees up front can make a huge difference to the business. And then you can always credit it off the back.

26:39So it's like, hey, we'll give you two months free on the back if you pay your first two months up front or hey, pay your first and last month now um and then we roll into monthly. And so that's a very typical way of offsetting um kind of CAC and cogs in the beginning that can help for longer kind of enterprise relationships. And they have they have the cash to do it, especially these, you know, banks got the money. And so um do either of those solutions sound more amendable to you?

27:05Yes. Um I think the the we we do collect some payment upfront. >> Um I just think it's a train that I can't really get off. Also, the more we start selling on um this kind of enterprise level value. >> I also have to update my marketing to reflect some of that. So there's there's there's paying some like go to market debt, if you will. >> So I think I think you bring up a good point. I think it all leads to the bridge. I think you said it well. some sort of cash bridge and figuring out how to solve for that.

27:37>> Yeah, I think um this this brings up a really good like kind of meta concept for everybody which is that oftentimes uh we describe features not bugs. It's like we think there's something wrong with our business when it's really just like that's just an element of the business that you're in. You're an enterprise. One of the trade-offs is it will take them longer to buy. One of the things that you get for that is that they tend to keep their contracts. They tend to stick for multiple years. They tend to have higher gross margins. They tend to be worth way more per customer. it's a trade. It's not like you have a problem.

28:05Um the cash flow for sure is a is a an existential threat to the business. But I think changing the terms of payment and even putting like a so we separate our thing into phases, right? And we get paid in these tanches. Like there's ways that you can basically restructure the offer so that you can frontload cash because there are there are definitely enterprise businesses that you know sell a similar customers to yours that I have seen that pour out cash. Um, and the main thing is that they just make sure that they can pay for it up front. And a lot of those guys are willing to do that. Just like, hey, uh, before we do our kind we do an initial 90-day that kind of gets you a sped up and then we enter the main kind of the main contract. At that point, they're already 30 in your ecosystem. They're not going to like cancel, but it's easier to get the approval uh on a much smaller scope and then upsell from the small scope to the big scope.

28:51>> And then you abandon kind of the legacy legacy messaging once you've once you've crossed the chasm is what you're saying. So, believe it or not, um I would probably change the messaging sooner rather than later. And the reason for that is typically when you advertise up market, you will still scoop up down market, but it doesn't work the other way. So, big guys don't want to hang out with the the minnows, but the minnows want to hang out with the big guys. >> Uh I have been in primary care for the last 20 years, uh 16 in my own business.

29:19Uh in the last two years, I've changed to a direct primary care model, which is basically a um a membership model, much like a gym membership model. Uh so, uh my revenue was $2 million last year, 15% uh profits. Um I do kind of live through my business, too, so that kind of helps out. So, um the uh the thing that I would really like to know is what is the marketing uh strategy or the mar marketing uh model that you would advise me to grow my business?

29:50>> You want to double because I overheard you earlier. >> Um what what's sales velocity right now? How many customers are you selling per week per month? >> Uh I have around 2,000 per year. >> Per year. Okay. So, um, so 40 a week roughly. >> Okay. [clears throat] So, 40 new patients a week are coming in. What's the way that you're getting customers right now? >> I'm sorry. No, it's it's it's not the new patients that are coming in. I have 2,000 2,300 patients, right?

30:19>> What's sales velocity? So, what's new? >> Sales velocity is probably around seven to eight a month. >> 78 a month. Okay, got it. So, you have really good patient stick obviously if you're at 2,000 and you can That's great. Okay, >> so the seven to eight a month that are coming in, is that just word of mouth? Uh we did we did a pretty good marketing um turn in the fall. Spent a lot of money on some things. I think we put the cart before the horse a little bit. Okay. Uh as far as just going on um online and and and really marketing Google Google ads.

30:47>> What did you So who's PBC? >> Yes. I mean and and then Facebook and and Instagram. >> Did you hire an agency? >> Uh we did. >> Okay. Um how did that work? uh got a lot of people uh at the top of the funnel and we did not close. >> Okay. >> So, uh we know what our issue uh was at that time. So, >> so what was the issue? >> Um I I think followup as much as anything

31:14>> uh because most people in our town kind of knows our they know our brand. Yeah. >> So, uh or they know who I am. >> Sure. >> So, uh so yeah, I think it's close as much as anything. >> Yeah. So, what stops you from doing that again? and now working the leads this time. >> Uh people getting the right people. I mean, you know, a lot of a lot of questions have been answered uh since being here, obviously.

31:40>> No, you're good. I mean, that's I mean, that's the that's the hope. >> Exactly. Yeah. So, it it really is, I think, the people uh and the script and the uh and and the execution. Okay. >> Of those things. So, >> so in all likelihood, you running ads in a local market to get more patients feels pretty sound to me. Um, the offer that you were running, what was what what offer were you running to get people in the door?

32:06>> Um, as far as just direct primary care, >> when you ran your ads, yeah, >> it's a monthly membership. >> No, no, no. But like >> the ad wouldn't be like want to buy a direct monthly membership, right? >> No. Right. So, like what was the offer that people saw that caused them to take action? Uh the genesis difference uh was was a big part because we're we're more of a difference in uh we we're more of a functional type medicine uh you know I hate to use functional holistic and all those things. It kind of sounds like I'm Yeah. So uh I'm more of a reopath. So I'm realistic about

32:40>> I'm a reopath myself. >> Yeah. Yeah. So and we did shut a gym down during COVID. So uh and I told certain things about the >> I was a rebel during co so uh a lot of things uh that that has really been a a flagship with me. Okay >> because I was I was or we as a practice we've got six providers at my practice and we all kind of stuck a finger up to the establishment. >> So what we need to do is basically have an offer that we can run on the front end. It would typically be some sort of I would say $19 to $99 offer. And I want to be clear I'm not trying to undervalue your services. This is going to be a front-end thing.

33:15>> Sure. >> So, you you get them to opt in, thank you page, they can buy it. Some of them will, some of them won't. Doesn't really matter. So, the ones that do buy and self-schedu, those will be easy because you won't have to work them. They'll probably just show up because they paid, right? >> For all the rest of the leads, you call them up, you collect the card over the phone. Um, and then you obviously build them the the $19 or $99 thing for whatever the call it a functional movement screening or like some sort of pain assessment or like if that's uh basically you want to figure out what the most common pain that your ideal avatar is suffering from and then make the offer related to that [clears throat] and it would probably be some sort of screenassessment slash um you know x-ray or whatever, right?

33:55>> Uh that then reveals the problem and then you do a prescriptive close on the solution. And so this is a a very tried and true method and it sounds like the biggest issue that uh physicians offices typically deal with is that secretaries don't know how to work leads. >> Right. >> Right. And so you really need a sales role. >> And so um it feels uncomfortable sales medicine but it's also reality. And so um that's pretty much it which is like that's the offer and then you would hook it up to a scheduler and then you would call the leads.

34:28That's I mean that's that's really it. And so it means you just need one person to call the leads and you can do this thing. >> Okay. >> So then everything that prevents you >> so I'm I'm going to say it super directly. Everything that you spend your time on that is not interviewing to get this setter and get them trained up are things that are not going to double the business.

34:53>> Thank I can make more money in most companies by by fixing their show up rate than by increasing their close rate. >> What do you do to increase schedule show up rate? Like if you looked at an organization and their show up rate was 25%. Sure. >> Right. And they're like, "Our closing sucks." And you say, "Wait, wait, pause." >> Yeah. >> Where do you start with show up? Where where do you start with that? Like what do you do with a when their booked me aren't showing up? >> So we owned a company called Allen, which was a scheduling software. So I got to see 4,000 appointments a day across all different industries. So we got to test for absolute throughput and we got we got to test every I had two data scientists who were looking at all these different things. So the number one uh lever on throughput in an organization is availability as crazy as that sound. We tested every single variable. It's number of actual time slots per day, seven days a week,

35:38>> which I find this hilarious because like obviously in the gym world I would have gym owners being like, "Man, I can't close any of these leads." And I was like, "All right, well, let me see your availability." They're like, "Oh, I take sales appointments from 7 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. on Tuesdays and Thursdays." And I'm like, "And if they can't make that time," I'm like, "Well, then they're not serious." I'm like, "Okay, well, how's that working for you?" It's not [laughter] >> right. Right. Right. >> And so the thing is is um I tell this story about Ila. She was trying to get like her eyebrow something whatever whatever she was does. [laughter] Um and she was in LA and she called a spot and they were like, "We have a time in a week." She's like, "Doesn't work."

36:10She called the next spot. I we can see you in four hours. Called the next spot and they're like, "I can see you right now." She went there. It's just about convenience. And so the number of total time slots per day and the increment of the time slot. And so I'm just giving you the like I'll give you all the the different points, but this first one is number of total time slots 7 days a week. The the next one is increments of time slots. So 15 minute time increments for example versus 60-minute time increments. It'll be more precise and for whatever reason, at least in an internet world, uh we get higher schedule rates from internet bookings from that perspective.

36:40>> The >> for shorter time slots. Yes. Got Now, the the actual sales appointment can be 45 or 60 minutes, but the ability to start at 3:15. >> Got it? >> Or 3:05, whatever, the more intricate it can be. Like, if I have an appointment at 3:05, the likelihood the person is on time is way higher than 3:00. Like, you know this from sales, right? Like, oh, 3:05, like, oh, I got to be there on that time. It just it signals detail, right? >> Yes. >> So, uh the availability overall, the the the the number of time slots per hour. Um, the third one is, this is just a tip. We learned this one is that you dragging appointments up boosts show up rates like nobody's business. And so, let's say you have an appointment that you you get a lead. You call them up. You qualify the lead and you say, "Hey, um, it's it it's see I see here that you've got a you've got an appointment on Thursday and today is the Monday." Say, "Hey, um, I just had my four o'clock cancel. Um, and so if you want, I can pull you up at 4:00." And now sometimes if you have a two like a let me introduce you to Sean. he's going to be like if you have a set or closer set up, but you could even self set to yourself.

37:41It's like I've got a four o'clock and now that I talked to you, we're gonna it's going to be awesome. And they're like, oh, and same day, you know, same day show up rates are way higher than 2, 3, 4 days out. And so number of total time slots, increment of time slot, the proximity from when you talk to them to when you book the appointment, and then if at all possible dragging that forward into the present, we try and do same day next. So number three, I learned this from a different mentor. They call it misos, but basically multiple equivalent simultaneous offers. So what does that mean? That means that I present, offer A, offer B, and offer C, or just offer A and B.

38:19Doesn't really matter. You can have two offers, you can have three offers. And each of these have different prices and terms associated with them. And so what happens is when you make multiple equivalent offers, it's like embedding reciprocity. It's like, hey, I'm trying to be reasonable. I just want to figure out what works best for you because all three of these work for me, but which one's better? This is a way of actually teasing out what someone else's priorities are if they're not willing to tell you because a lot of times you want to hold your card close and not say what are the things that are most valuable to you. Now over time you build some trust you build some rapport and you will be able to share because ideally something that's important to you is not important to them and they give you this one and something that's important to them is not important to you give to them and that's fundamentally a good negotiation.

38:52One of the big things that I misunderstood in the beginning is that I assumed negotiation was a zero sum game and it's never a zero- sum game because you're a different person. You have different needs. You're always going to have some things that will be more important to you than other people. And in that situation, it's like you want to just interlock the things that matter most to each person. That's where it becomes a positive sum game. Both parties are better off from basically giving and taking in places that are less meaningful to them and more meaningful to the other person. Journal of personality and social psychology showed that presenting multiple equivalent offers simultaneously increases the likelihood of finding mutually beneficial solutions. This approach demonstrates flexibility while also maintaining your core interest because you're the one who's presenting all the offers. It's almost like a reverse assumed close. Hey, I'll do any of these three things and you just pick the one that works for you. And then the thing is they're picking all any of these I said already worked for me. Let me give you like a real world example.

39:40So let's say option A is lower monthly fee with a longer commitment. Option B is a higher monthly fee but has premium support. And then option C is kind of like a pay as you go with slightly higher rates but maximum flexibility. Right? So all three options will give you similar overall value, but you might look at them and be like, I just want to know which one meets your needs better. From their answers, you'll be able to understand their motivations. Now, let me tell you some knowledge from the street. If someone gives you multiple offers, if you're on the other side of the table, what I like to do is say, "I like the best part of this one, and I like the best part of this one, and I like the best part of this one, and why don't we make an offer that is the best of all three?"

40:22And I learned this from my friend Shiron. Guy's done more deals than anyone I know. I was like, "Oo, that's good." So, the flip side is you could ask someone, "Hey, can you give me two or three versions what this deal might look like?" And then they come up with their versions of the deals. And then you say, "Great, I like this piece. How about we do option D?" And what's nice about this is it also shows some active listing for you. You countering with something like this or even taking two of the three components. Two of those components might be meaningful for you and not for them again because they put them in the different deals. You might find out that you can get all right.

40:51Best offer to get wedding photographer clients for my new Google Ads agency. Run Google Ads. Okay. Um, so wedding photographers, honestly, I know a bunch of people who have been in the wedding photographer space. It's actually very easy to generate leads in that space. The difficulty with them is that everybody in their mother is a wedding photographer or rather a photographer. And so the quality of the leads tends to be bad. And so you'll typically need a higher friction sales process to sell anything worthwhile. So, call it like a 2K plus price point. Um, and you'll want to start making content ASAP. And this kind of goes for everybody is that the world of content is merged with ads. So, you make lots and lots of content. When content does well, take that content, run it as an ad to the thing you sell.

41:35And then, if you still don't have big of a brand, bring them to a live, you know, webinar. I mean, if you have a small amount of traffic, bring them to a live call. If you have a little bit more traffic, you can bring them to a webinar, which means you just send them a link to hop on a call with more people. And then you present stuff and then you just solicit them to take a water. >> The thing that took the whole gym world by like storm was the challenge concept. And so that was you lose XBS in 6 weeks and if you do I'll give you your money back.

42:05>> So if you succeed, I'll give you your money back. I had an 80% success rate. But the reason is that you lose like Janet loses 20 pounds. I'm like Janet you're still fat as [ __ ] Who who are you kidding? And she's like you're right. But I also you don't wait till the end. So they start losing weight, they're halfway through, and I'd sell them halfway through into the big thing. You don't wait till it finishes. You never wait till it finishes. So that was more about delivery. But from a the best the best way in my opinion to make money in the in the that space is a diagnostic sale. It's basically you are at 200 lb, you want to be 160 lb, sorry, 140 lb. So that's going to be 60 lb difference. I can give you 2 lbs a week. It means it's going to take 30 weeks. Well, realistically, we have a phase of weight loss, phase of maintenance, phase of weight loss, and we only do weight loss for 10 weeks. So, you put in the calculator. So, so it's going to probably take 48 weeks in total. 30 of loss, 16 of maintenance. Uh, so 46 in total, it's 200 bucks a week. And so, 46 time 200, whatever that is, 9 grand.

43:04You're like, that's what it is. If you want, you can prepay it, save 20%. That's what a lot of people do. Uh, or so you ask and then they you wait and they say yes, great. They say it's like, "Well, if you want to save 10%, we put half down and we can break the payments over the rest." And then if they say no, then you do a seesaw downell, which is basically you say, "Well, how low do you want your payments to be?" And they're like, "Well, as low as possible." Then it's like, "Cool, then let's just try and stack as much as we can up front. So, what's the most you can put down so we can put the least amount over over months?" And then they say that and you're like, "Great. We spread the rest over months and that's it." I mean, with weight loss, it's all prepayment. That's the only thing you do. Now, if you want to get sexy with it, what you can do is make the prepayment, sorry, the guarantee contingent on prepayment.

43:43That'll crush. That could be it. You might just do that. She's like, "That's it. That's what I'll do." >> Uh, my name's Josh. I own a business in Australia and we help universities keep Australia. Australia >> and we help universities or unis keep their students and keep them happy so they don't drop out. So, your college video was really applicable to us. I think the Australian government was listening to you because they introduced a policy this year. I know I came to tell you that news in person. I know

44:10>> uh they introduced a policy where Australian unis to receive funding have to dramatically increase the amount of low socioeconomic students, the one that benefits most from uni, which is cool. >> And then they released a policy that said for essentially $60 million of student funding has to go to clubs, societies, fraternities to support those students. So 8 years ago I started a business on the premise that uni should really invest in supporting students because it keeps their customers there and that's good for unis and goods for the students.

44:38>> So I have a woman in a $60 million red dress. >> Okay. >> And my question is normally I'm selling to a student engagement professional. It's their first professional job. Now I'm selling to their boss's boss. >> Okay. So I have a a value equation basically for student retention that we've created this instrument which shows them why students drop out where their dropout rates are benchmarks it exactly what to do >> sounds good >> and then our training solutions are the answer to that

45:04>> right >> but I spent eight years selling training solutions not data and analysis I'm not used to selling to the CEO I'm used to selling to their employees say again >> they just want data >> they just want the data >> the higher up you go just for everybody for enterprise sales the the more money the person makes the more they don't care about the narrative. >> Yeah, >> that's just been my experience. Now, of course, stories sell and there's like sure you want to have a met, you know, a meta narrative if you want, but like until you show them the math behind it,

45:32>> which is like what is your return on this? >> And that's what they want. So, my problem was my churn, I'd lose maybe 20% per year, the ones who'd hire me for training, the students go, "This best training I've ever been to, it's amazing." But they wouldn't be able to tell their boss or their boss's boss the data to prove that it was good for retention. >> Well, you have to track the data. >> You have to track it. Yeah, >> but they would never give me that data. So, I couldn't ultimately prove it. >> You have to make a contingent. Like, you have to do it. >> You have to do it. >> You have to do it, >> right? >> In order to work with us, like we have a proprietary technology and it feeds off of data. And in order for us to make your product or solution better, we have to get this data so we can implement it in real time. And so, right now, we're start with vanilla version. Yeah. But in two years, there's going to be the super tailored version to your university. So, we know that, you know, all universities benefit from these five things, but there's usually five to 10 other things that are we will learn from this data.

46:16So, you have to do it. So, these are the three things that we'll do to make it easier for you to actually get this data back to us so we can help you make more money. >> Yeah. Can I ask you one quick follow up on that? >> The tool that we do that now is a $30,000 product per year on subscription that uh universities have started to buy. Before that, our LTV of training was $34,000. >> Okay. >> So, the tool that justifies the $34,000 training is worth $30,000.

46:41>> Sure. So that's what I'm wondering. Do I focus more on selling that and then sell >> for 60 if you want and just say it comes with these two things. >> It comes with the training. >> Sure. >> And pivot towards that. >> Yeah. >> I mean fundamentally like those are components. I don't even see them as that important. Like the only thing that matters to them is the likelihood that they get their customers to stay and pay longer and renew year after year after year. >> Yes. >> And so how we get there matters just really little. And you know this from the sales side. I think you're just into you're in the weeds right now because you're you know you have your entrepreneur hat on and you're here but like

47:14>> if you're a customer >> I don't care if we're going to be doing keto or cutting my calories like I just want to be able to fit in my high school jeans. >> Yeah. >> So just tell me how your proof checklist is built on showing receipts names numbers someone just like the buyer getting the result. Yes. I sell marketing to precision machine shops and aerospace suppliers. Dope. Uh, the winds are real, but they live behind NDAs and a culture where nobody tells competitors what's working. Two questions. What's your hierarchy of proof when the strongest evidence can't be named? And would you ever walk away from a great client because you can't use the win?

47:48Um, great, great questions. Um, I'll answer the second one first, which is no. I wouldn't walk away from a great client because I can't use it unless that was part of the terms of the agreement. So, if I'm giving you a discount because I'm going to use your case study, then if I don't use the case study, then I have to change the terms, right? So, that's a that's an easy one in terms of the first one, which is what's your hierarchy of proof and the strongest evidence can't be named is that you can still do Acme Corp. And so, you can still be incredibly specific about what you did and not necessarily name the company. And so, that can get you around a lot of the like concerns.

48:22Like there's tons of times that you hear me tell stories about portfolio companies or companies that we've worked with where I'm not saying this is the name of the company, this is the person, but I can still tell you the actual story and give you a case study of before and after. And so you can say we changed the names of the companies uh just for uh anonymity and that might actually be able to that might allow you to collect a lot more uh testimonials or proof for your specific customers. So hopefully that helps. Um, beyond that, there's proof that happens in the past, but there's also proof that can happen in the present. So, what I can explain here is like to what degree can we approximate what being a customer of ours would look like. And so, I'll give you an example what I mean. So, if I said I'm helping you generate leads for your, let's say, your precision, you know, machine shops and your aerospace suppliers. If I can get call recordings from these people, which you can also include in your exist in your in your uh initial bids or whatever. Um, you can then play the calls that you're getting for them for a prospect. So, it's like, "Hey, you know, this is John. I saw an ad on the internet for ABC, you know, precision machine shop. Um, can you tell me more about what you guys have going on?" So, I could play that for a prospect.

49:36So, it's kind of meta. So, it's like, and so then I would just say, "Hey, to be clear, can you handle about 10 to 15 of these a week?" And they'll be like, "Oh, dude, that's exactly what I want." And so, proof can come in a lot of different versions. It's just it's not just case studies. It's how many ways can I approximate what life is going to be like on the other side of working with me and take as much risk out of that as I possibly can. And so the perfect world of this is a free trial. Like don't trust me, let me just do it and then you can pay me after. And so the idea is how many of these proof points can I pull forward from what they would have experienced after they were a customer. Hey Alex, can you hear me?

50:07>> I can't hear you. What's up dude? >> Hey. Yeah. So this is Sebastian. I sell rental relocation services to people who want to move to the Netherlands or want to move within the Netherlands itself. >> We make zero dollars at this point. Uh what is stopping me is that I am getting free users uh for a free tool I built to kind of post all the listings. >> So it's a software thing that you built. Okay, >> that's it. Yeah, but barely any conversions to the paid offer. Um so if I can't be paying customers, I'll basically have to get back to having a job in about a year, but I got some saved up to to work on this. Um, so really my focus is on how to define my avatar so I can specifically target higher paying clients. Uh, the free service is doing well. I'm getting about 330 free users there. So like it's growing by itself. It's just to

50:54>> um just in the last three months by word of mouth basically. >> So 100 100 users a month. >> Yes. Yes. >> Is it accelerating? >> Um yeah. So for example today I got five free users without doing any marketing. Uh yesterday I got like six. Um, I've had cases where I get like 80 in a day if a group shares it. Okay. It just like that's more so students and young people that feel like they can do the tech. My ideal was let me share it that way and then some of the users will be willing to pay for it. And that transition has been hard for me.

51:24>> Uh, how many of them have you gotten on the phone with? >> Um, so in total just three. Um, a lot of them are just students where like their their income is just way too low. Like they're looking to rent for 900 bucks uh a month. I'm not able to sell them a 1500 euro service or more. Um, for the ones that got on the phone, I got one person as a someone who will be a client essentially. The thing is he's only starting to look for an apartment in September. So, it's just too long of a a timeline for me to wait for that to get a referral and like get that as a result.

51:56>> So, I have two considerations. So, the first one is the volume that you have for a free tool is actually still pretty low. Um, and so I would normally say maybe we need to constrain down the amount of free stuff that you're giving so that the paid tier is more attractive, right? So it's like if if Spotify had no ads ever, then you would just never upgrade, right? If they make the ads annoying enough, >> you make the upgrade, right? And so there's always a sweet spot with Fremium. Premium is one of the toughest models out there. But if done well, you basically have zero cost of acquisition and all of your your marketing efforts.

52:31So just so you can reccharize how you think about the business, your marketing spend if premium is done well is on ascension. So think about all of the free users, they should be zero. That the cost of that should be zero. And then where you deploy capital or effort should be on the ascension. And so right now if you've only gotten on the phone with three out of 300 users, I see that as silly because right now given the if you're getting five a day, if you told me I have five sales calls a day, the likely that you're not going to make money is really low. So I would say like can can you add in an onboarding component that you manually do it because I think those conversations like if you told me 6 months from now uh because at the rate that you're currently growing cuz it's accelerating uh you probably have another 500 users conservatively if you take 500 calls over the next 3 months one you will make money two you will learn very quickly rather than me telling you what your users want from them what what they will want more and you might end up pivoting the business I don't know because it's obviously super new. Um, but that is that is what I would do cuz right now you're super early. So, it's like we just need to make dollars. You have free lead genen which is the hardest part to crack. So, kudos to you for doing that.

53:40But that's what I would focus on. >> Okay. Yeah. So, that's one thing I like I said, I have one client that's willing to pay in September. The one caveat I've had so far is just because I can see the uh the type of home they're looking for >> is like 80% of the free users have basically have a budget of $1,000 or less. and it's mostly being shared under students. So that's where like I I I feel like maybe just um even if I could get them on the phone like there's still students who literally have no money. It would be

54:07>> you want to ask them because the thing is is you're you're thinking about only one let me say it differently. >> The we want to channel demand. We do not want to create demand. So demand already exists and we want to we it's like think about this like these rivers of desire and when we market or sell we just want to like carve out a tiny little piece of that river and direct it towards us. And so right now you've got a flow that's coming towards you. You've got these students that want your thing, right?

54:34And so there might be a rivullet that exists there that's like maybe there is an automated thing that's $50 or $100 that you can sell them that and there's a ton of volume there too. So like there might be a play there. But either way, right now, I think you tinkering on the computer is not going to be the solution. >> Yeah. >> So, getting on the phone and also you'll find out quickly. Are there messaging that they're responding to that the people who have money aren't? >> Because obviously you're getting all these students. Now, maybe you got shared in these groups and that's fine.

55:04And we don't want to shift the whole, you know, the whole product roadmap because you had some early traction with a specific demo that wasn't your your your goal. But we also have the real the financial reality of like the like the likely in order for this to succeed and increase its chances, we need to make money. And so I'm okay with it. Yeah. Right. With it being bootstrapped and you making a couple hundred bucks a day uh just from having those conversations. And what'll probably happen too is that when you serve a cheaper demographic first, you end up finding ways to automate almost everything. Which if you can do that, you might end up finding out that you automating everything for them allows you to be a lowcost leader, which then allows you to serve a huge base at a really affordable price, but still have a high gross margin.

55:41>> Got it. Yeah, that's basically what the free tool does is I looked at what our kind of software are currently charging for like 40 bucks a month, and I basically just copied that, but for free. Now I just have to Yeah. figure out how to get people through that. >> Um, Just ask them what they're what they're struggling with. Like you might find out that you actually are lead genen from moving services, dude. >> Like just think the next problem. >> Like whenever you solve a problem for a customer, if you do it well, it always creates another problem. If I solve leads, you'll have sales. If I solve sales, you'll have delivery. If you have delivery issues, you're going to have revenue retention, expansion issues. If all of those things are right, then you're going to have leadership and scaling issues. If all of that's right, too, like we go back to the beginning, create more demand, right? So like there's always problems. So, as long as you're doing it well, just ask them the next thing they're doing.

56:25>> Like, you could sell the you could sell the student leads probably. Like, there's a version of this business that doesn't sell anything, just sells the leads themselves. >> Just a bold self. Yeah. >> Yeah. And just sell the leads cuz the moving company will happily sell, you know, pay you 200 bucks or 300 bucks for a warm handoff and then you have no work. >> So, like there's there's plays here, but I think all is going to start with you getting on the phone with these customers. >> Okay? So just make like within the onboarding flow whenever they give their email name basically make one step before finalizing just like get on a call essentially.

56:57>> Yeah. And you're going to have no shows to be clear. You're going to but you can also like the moment you get it I would outbound call. >> Okay. Got it. Sounds good. Okay. >> That's what I would do, man. >> Like I'm working on that. Thank you. [laughter] >> You bet, dude. I appreciate you, man. This is actually from a Harvard Business School thing that I learned from Shiron Servata. It's called BATNA. Now I didn't know the fancy term for it but it means best alternative to a negotiated agreement. So what does this really mean? Research has shown that having strong BATNA basically a strong alternative gives you significant leverage in negotiations. Negotiation is all about leverage. London Business School did a study and they found that negotiators who know their alternatives set higher aspirations so they ask for more. They make more aggressive first offers and they negotiate ultimately better outcomes. So your BATNA serves as almost like an anchor, a counter anchor that you have in the back of your mind of what you're negotiating with. It's kind of like a source of power. It's a decision standard that you only accept deals that are better than your best alternative. You can think about this in any setting. So if you're with a girl and you know that you can only date tens, if a seven comes along, you're like, "Well, my alternative is a 10, so I'm only dealing with tens." If someone says, "Hey, I'll be willing to buy all of your inventory for 10 bucks a piece."

58:11And somebody else comes along and says, "I'll do it for nine." Instead of just saying no, you're like, I'll do it for 1050 or I'll do it for 11. You can edge them up. But if you know that it's not going to matter, then it doesn't matter. So, I'll tell you something that recently happened. I'm right now negotiating to buy a home. It's something that Leila wants and it's aggressive. We already have a home that we like a lot. I really like the house we have. My best alternative to buying this house is doing nothing and just enjoying the home that I already have.

58:40They're in a terrible position because right now I know that they haven't had anyone else who's bid on the property because it's aggressively priced. I'll put it that way. It's them versus me and it's who wants it less. The reason bad is so important because you're like, "Okay, I get that. How do I have a best alternative to a negotiated agreement?" You win negotiations and I'm starting with this one because I think it it's all five of the or six ones that I'm going to show you are going to be so important. But this one is probably the greatest source of psychological power.

59:05And you do this before you sit down to the table. me going to look at these homes, I know I don't have to buy the homes. When I was selling Gym Launch and Prestige Labs, I was like, I can just keep the businesses and they'll just keep making me money. I don't need to sell them. And from negotiating for that position, you only want to sell when you don't want to sell. You want to buy when you don't want to buy because you have something else. If you're looking for jobs as an employee, you want to negotiate when you already have another offer. So, if you're going to your existing employer, get another offer and then negotiate with that. You can only do that so many times before you start losing goodwill. So, you have to make sure that you're balancing that well. If you're dealing with a vendor, then you're like, "Okay, I'm going to get multiple bids before I'm going to decide to work with you because these are what I'm considering." You'll get so educated from actually negotiating four, five, six of these vendor agreements that you'll learn other terms that other people include that you can use, which is a later strategy that I'll explain.

59:54Getting multiple offers before you sit down increases your bet. So for sure don't take the first offer because even if you have first offer within the negotiation with one guy but then you have that offer compared to all the other offers you're ultimately going to get to do the work on the vendor side it's reversed. What's my best alternative? What are my other customers? If I've got 20 other customers I got people banging on the door. It's a supply demand thing. So I've got more demand for my services than I have supply. And so if you don't want it don't worry. I've got another customer behind you. And so this is the leverage that we go back and forth in negotiations. And then finally with partnerships the same idea. How can I get multiple offers from people wanting to buy my business? And at the same degree for me, if I'm trying to buy a business, then I want to not have to buy the business because I got other businesses I'm looking at. So, no matter what, all of this is one before you sit down to the table. Right now, if you sit down and you need this deal and you have no other offers, all the little tactics that you can try, sure, you can try to do it. But the thing is that it's just trying to win at poker only on bluffing.

1:00:50It's a bad position to be in. I would rather have pocket aces. If you have other offers, there's two different ways of thinking about this. So, one is you can be overt about it and say, "Listen, this is the counter offer. If you can beat the offer, beat it. If you can't, no worries. We don't need to waste time." The other way is that you just have it in the back of your mind and then you just see what you can get. Because the thing is, somebody else is giving you a $10 offer. If you say, "Hey, I've got a $10 offer. Maybe this person will just beat it by$1025." But if you have the confidence that you know you're going to sell the inventory no matter what for a profit, shoot for 11.

1:01:18Shoot for 12. Shoot for 15. Like, you can shoot way higher because you know your plan B is not bad. And so when you show it, they're just going to basically marginally edge it versus you having the confidence to basically >> we have flying logic which is a software that is designed to help with the theory of constraints thinking process. >> Flying logic. >> Flying logic. >> Okay, got it. >> Okay. >> I heard Okay, keep going. [laughter] >> And we sell to uh anywhere from consultants all the way up to huge enterprises including big DoD contractors like Rathon, Boeing, things like that. Um, we were on a when the software started and didn't have any marketing experts, it was on a perpetual licensing for many years.

1:01:53>> Um, we switched it to SAS about 15 months ago. We've gone from zero MR to 10,000 in that period of time. >> Okay. >> But we're still at, you know, 200k revenue looking to break through. >> Um, we have a real pricing problem. We know we're really underpriced. Okay. >> Um, Sammy suggested that we start breaking into doing enterprise sales at like 250K for a site license, things like that. That's correct. >> Given that it's the three of us, we don't have a ton of cash. Yeah.

1:02:18>> And I was wondering what's the best leverage way that I can use myself, my comfort with high ticket sales and things like that to break into that type of B2B sales, B2B sales with those type of enterprises. >> So you said you have comfort selling high ticket, correct? >> So where are you selling high ticket now? >> I've done in the past with my system. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. And so the software helps people do what? Just use the theory of constraints. It helps people visualize the diagrams, the theory of constraints, thinking processes, current reality trees, future reality trees. You can use it for all kinds of things. My maps but too, but it's basically very unlike Vizio in that you connect A to B and then it magically rearranges itself. So it removes all the friction of creating these kinds of diagrams, especially when you have a whole group of people shouting out stuff and you're making changes.

1:03:02>> You don't have to go away and come back the next day with all. >> So it sounds like it's a consultant product. >> Um yeah, very it's used by >> that's what it sounds like, right? It's like and one of the things is probably worth looking at is like who is I mean this is every software company. Well, actually really every company has to do this at some point, which is like who do we serve, [clears throat] right? And so if you have like I mean if you already have contacts at Rathon and all that stuff like I don't even think that their budgets round down to $10,000, [laughter] right? >> And so yeah, I mean I think they wouldn't even believe you if you charged them less than a million. Um

1:03:31>> we get a contact from City Bank who sends us a PO for 25 copies seat lights. We actually PO them. They uh we send them the license key for them to manage and then they send us a 10-page contract of all the additional things they want us to agree to. >> Uhu. >> And of course we you know that we don't have a corporate lawyer to review that and redline it. >> Yeah. >> That doesn't really happen that often a lot of times. But we we do get onesies and twoosies in these companies and a lot of times it's through a reseller >> and an asset manager is the only email address that I have. So I want to be able to talk to the actual

1:03:59>> How did you get the $10,000 a month? Um well basically the people who have started using flying logic back in 2010 with version one they're very sticky >> and so they stay and then so when we when we moved to Perpetual there was from Perpetual to MR there was some whining but you know a lot of people really converted over we offered them an upgrade deal. We're building out Flying Logic Academy. >> How did you get those people >> 14 years ago? >> How 14 years ago >> the original software was developed I developed it for Northwork Grumman. Okay using their internal research development money I licensed it back from North Grumman to become the perpetual publisher. Yeah.

1:04:31>> Um, so I still pay them a small royalty, but um, essentially North of Grumman started using it. They have a site license for everybody in their company. I don't know how many people use it in the company, but people from North of Grumman then go to Rathon, they Boeing, they go >> Are you say that? >> Um, I'm not allowed to use them. Well, we say fact, but it's not it's not something we can >> I would give them a royalty just to be able to say that. >> Yeah. Well, we we have if you look at our website, we we have a nice we have a nice gallery of logos on on our website.

1:04:55You know, Sandal Labs, you know, >> we have two things. All right. So, actually three, and they're probably the three most important things that you need to figure out, which is you need to figure out who you sell to, you figure out how much you're going to charge them. You figure out how you're going to get them. And so, right now, if you have if you have a product that already has a clear use case for enterprise, then I would probably go whale hunting rather than go minute hunting, >> right? And so if that's the who, the price is going to going to be relatively self-explanatory, which is you're going to get into the conversation with them and just say the biggest number you can possibly think of [snorts]

1:05:28>> and just see how how they react. You can always go down, can't go up, >> right? >> Right. And so, uh, seriously, big no for everybody. Just say the biggest number you can think of because what the worst worst feeling in the world is when you're like 250 grand. They're like, okay. and you're like, "Fuck [laughter] like I could have got 500 on that." You know what I mean? Um, and so that's the who, that's the price, and then in terms of the advertising method, you guys have background. You know, people that have been in those in those um in those businesses, and they do have typically long sales cycles that you're probably accustomed to. I think the issue that you've had with like these one-off contracts and all the contingencies and terms is simply because you don't care for what you're charging,

1:06:10>> right? >> So, at what price would you be like, "Oh, I don't care." Yeah, I'll agree to all that stuff. And so I think yeah, fundamentally from a strategic perspective, it's a pricing issue >> which then kind of ladders down to okay, who can afford the price that I want to do it? And then what's the friction that's associated with b selling to those types of customers? Well, it's not worth it for 10 grand a month. >> It's worth it for a million a year, >> right? >> So then I think that's and I think you're honestly like one deal away from fixing all your cash flow. If you like this video and you're a business owner who wants to break through your current revenue ceiling, I distilled every lesson from scaling 10 businesses past 10 million and three businesses past 100 million into a completely free scaling road map that I've used to go from 0 to 1, 0 to 10, and 0 to 100 plus. And so you can click here and you can check it out. Again, absolutely free. And since you're a business owner, appreciate you.

1:06:52And uh enjoy.